{"id":7,"date":"2025-09-16T23:56:56","date_gmt":"2025-09-16T23:56:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/krisstokes.com\/sowhatpodcast\/?page_id=7"},"modified":"2026-01-14T15:15:04","modified_gmt":"2026-01-14T15:15:04","slug":"home","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/","title":{"rendered":"Home"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading has-text-align-center\">Episodes<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<!-- <p style=\"text-align: center;\">Episode feed is temporarily unavailable.<\/p> -->\n\n<div class=\"grid grid-2-col\">\n\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E0 Korla Pandit: Sean and Madhurima<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/PB1HoO_Zf20\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>Sean Johnson Andrews and Madhurima Chakraborty are starting a podcast where they talk to experts about one thing in their field that they will try to convince us is important. For Episode Zero, they talk about Exotica musician from the mid twentieth century, Korla Pandit, who wasn&#8217;t exactly what he seemed.\n\n\n\n*Sources \/ Show Notes*\n\nIn the episode, we discuss R. J. Smith\u2019s 2001 _Los Angeles_magazine article on Korla Pandit &#8211; titled \u201cThe Many Faces of Korla Pandit.\u201d An archived version of it can be found here:\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/books.google.com\/books?id=aF8EAAAAMBAJ&#038;lpg=PA73&#038;pg=PA73#v=onepage&#038;q&#038;f=false\n\n\nSean also brings up this article by Kimberl\u00e9 Crenshaw: \u201cMapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence against Women of Color,\u201d _Stanford Law Review_, Vol. 43, No. 6 (Jul., 1991), pp. 1241-1299.\u00a0\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/blogs.law.columbia.edu\/critique1313\/files\/2020\/02\/1229039.pdf\u00a0\n\n\nIf you are interested in exploring Pandit\u2019s life and legacy further, you can track down a copy of _Korla,_\n\n\n\nhttp:\/\/www.korlathemovie.com\n\n\n\na documentaryhttp:\/\/www.korlathemovie.com\/korla-movie-godfather-of-exotica\/produced by two filmmakers who worked at San Francisco\u2019s KGO-TV, where Korla Pandit\u2019s TV program aired for decades. Or, since you are already here, you can listen to whathttps:\/\/open.spotify.com\/playlist\/37i9dQZF1DZ06evO3cVljN?si=Zg3zzWHBSe&#8211;B2o0Fl53oASpotify has made available of hishttps:\/\/open.spotify.com\/playlist\/37i9dQZF1DZ06evO3cVljN?si=Zg3zzWHBSe&#8211;B2o0Fl53oAdiscography.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/open.spotify.com\/playlist\/37i9dQZF1DZ06evO3cVljN?si=Zg3zzWHBSe&#8211;B2o0Fl53oA\n\n\n\n*Credits*:\n\nHosts: Sean Johnson Andrews, http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty,\n\nhttp:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\n\n\n\nEpisode Art: &#8220;Korla Pandit&#8221; by Clint Chilcott https:\/\/www.flickr.com\/photos\/_elemenoh_\/18025092\n\n\n\nProduction Assistance: Kannon Steinmeyer\n\n\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokeshttps:\/\/www.krisstokes.com\n\nhttps:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E1 Borges: Alec Nevala-Lee<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/VxRlJ258b6E\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, Sean and Madhurima speak with the biographer and science fiction writer Alec Nevala-Leehttps:\/\/www.nevalalee.com\/about a short story he says has a deeper significance than even he understood for his first thirty years as a fan of it. Jorge Luis-Borges\u2019 \u201cTl\u00f6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius\u201d was first published in 1940, but Nevala-Lee argues it is even more important today.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.nevalalee.com\/\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius\n\n\n\n*Sources \/ Show Notes*\n\nAlec mentions the piece he wrote for _The Daily Beast_back in 2012, considering the way that the story relates to the propaganda and other efforts of Karl Rove and the George W. Bush administration. The piece is behind a paywall on _The Daily Beast_site, but an archived version is available in the Internet Archive\u2019s Wayback Machine, which the characters in the short story would have found to be a really convenient service for finding old books.\u00a0\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20200721073528\/https:\/\/www.thedailybeast.com\/what-karl-roves-learned-from-jorge-luis-borges\/\n\n\nIf you want to take Alec up on his recommendation, you can read the entire short story here.\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/sites.evergreen.edu\/politicalshakespeares\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/226\/2015\/12\/Borges-Tl%C3%B6n-Uqbar-Orbius-Tertius.pdf\n\n\n\nOr you can check out his intellectual history of science fiction, which he mentions at the end &#8211; _Astounding: John W. Campbell, Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, L. Ron Hubbard, and the Golden Age of Science Fiction._\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Astounding-Campbell-Heinlein-Hubbard-Science\/dp\/006257194X\n\n\n\n*Credits*:\n\nHosts: Sean Johnson Andrews, http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\n\nhttp:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\n\n\n\nEpisode Cover Art: &#8220;Plate 2 from the Tl\u00f6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius Exhibition&#8221; by Mark Peatfield &#8211; Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/w\/index.php?curid=67124981\n\n\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes\n\nhttps:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E2 Paternity: Kathalene Razzano<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/hzg0uZQ-abk\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode we talk with Kathalene Razzano about the history and implications of the argument that \u201cchildren need fathers,\u201d how this has been repeatedly (and especially recently) reappropriated by politicians, and how it can be seen in popular television talk show tropes where DNA tests solve paternity disputes. Katy is a media and cultural studies scholar who teaches atUniversity of Maryland, Baltimore County\n\nhttps:\/\/mcs.umbc.edu\/faculty-directory\/person\/ub42333\/\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Sources \/ Show Notes*\n\nIn the episode, we discuss Katy\u2019s 2014 article on this topic. It is available here.\u00a0\n\n\nhttps:\/\/www.tandfonline.com\/doi\/abs\/10.1080\/09502386.2014.886489\u00a0\n\n\nThere is\u00a0 lot written on the Moynihan Report, which we discuss quite a bit. But the best place to start might be the Wikipedia article on it (and the bibliography at the bottom.)\u00a0\n\n\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action\n\n\n\nThough we don\u2019t talk about it, one of the most important articles critiquing this report and its ahistorical, apolitical understanding of gender and the Black family is Hortense Spillers \u201cMama\u2019s Baby, Papa\u2019s Maybe.\u201d\n\n\nhttps:\/\/www.mcgill.ca\/english\/files\/english\/spillers_mamas_baby.pdf\u00a0\n\n\n\n\u00a0A lot has been written on the Heritage Foundation\u2019s \u201cProject 2025,\u201d but one place to start is just to look at the number of times the word \u201cfather\u201d appears in the document.\u00a0\n\n\nhttps:\/\/www.documentcloud.org\/documents\/24088042-project-2025s-mandate-for-leadership-the-conservative-promise\/\n\n\nFinally, if you so choose, you can find the 2020 podcast with J.D. Vance that we discuss at the end here\n\n\nhttps:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/32-j-d-vance-american-dreams-and-nightmares\/id1469999563?i=1000473090465\u00a0\n\n\n\nThe screenshot is from an episode of the May 7, 2023 episode of the The Steve Wilkos Show, titled \u201cThat Baby Looks NOTHING Like Me!\u201d https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=FOp2yUwTVoA.\n\nWhich Katy has written about elsewhere. FYI &#8211; The baby is his!\n\n\n\n\n\n*Credits*:\n\nHosts: Sean Johnson Andrews, http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\n\nhttp:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\n\n\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes\n\nhttps:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E3 The Golden Ratio: Christopher Shaw<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/1ZF8mRsxN4s\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, we speak with Chris Shaw, who is Associate Professor of Mathematics at Columbia College Chicago.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.colum.edu\/academics\/faculty\/detail\/christopher-shaw.html\n\nHe wanted to talk about the concept of the golden ratio, which is often used as an index of perfect proportion and symmetry in art, architecture, beauty, and nature. But, given that it applies to few of the things that supposedly exhibit this ideal proportion, Chris argues we probably shouldn\u2019t care about the golden ratio, even as he helps us to understand it..\n\n\n\n*Show Notes*\nIf you are interested in looking at some external resources, the first thing you should check out is some info\/images of the Vitruvian Man, which we discuss at several points, but, of course, can\u2019t show you on a podcast.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Vitruvian_Man\n\nWe also discuss George Markowsky\u2019s 1992 article, \u201cMisconceptions about the Golden Ratio,\u201d which appeared in _The College Mathematics Journal._\n\nhttps:\/\/www.jstor.org\/stable\/2686193\n\nNear the end of the episode, Madhurima also talks a bit about the recent book by Mario Livio, who calls the Golden Ratio \u201cThe World\u2019s Most Astonishing Number,\u201d which is an easy claim to make if you aren\u2019t too picky about actual measurements and proportions.\n\nhttps:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Golden-Ratio-Worlds-Astonishing-Number\/dp\/0767908155\u00a0\u00a0\n\nBut if you are charmed (or at least curious) about the ultimate claim our math expert makes in this episode &#8211; that there are a lot of cool numbers related to art and nature &#8211; then you should check out the open educational resource that Chris Shaw has just published. _Philosophical Geometry: Finding Math in Art and Nature_ is available for free.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/sites.google.com\/view\/schris\/philosophical-geometry-book\u00a0\n\nListeners will find chapter four of special importance: and if you want to see the full version of the golden rectangle above, scroll to page 69.\n\n\n*Credits*\n\nCover art: The image for this episode is actually a photo of a wood sculpture created by one of Chris\u2019s students, Mercedes Soria, to represent a golden rectangle. This is hard to tell because we have had to crop it to the size of a square for the purposes of fitting into these podcast platforms. But were you to see the whole creation, it would be one of the select art works that actually adheres to the golden ratio.\n\n\n\nHosts:\n\nHosts: Sean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E4 Job Numbers: Wailin Wong<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/c2SmS3VuAa0\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, we speak with Wailin Wong about the importance of accurate data &#8211; and the threat of its politicization in the current era. In particular, she talks about what is commonly referred to as the \u201cjobs report,\u201d produced by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.bls.gov\/\n\nWailin is the host of _The Indicator_ podcast from Planet Money on National Public Radio.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.npr.org\/podcasts\/510325\/the-indicator-from-planet-money\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Show Notes:*\nIn the episode, we talk quite a bit about this episode of _The Indicator_, where Wailin and her Co-Host discuss the very laborious process behind the collection of these jobs numbers.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.npr.org\/transcripts\/1102884171\n\nA more recent episode covers what it means when we get revisions to these numbers.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.npr.org\/transcripts\/1256812323\u00a0\n\nAnd if you are interested in exploring the Project Pan Subreddit, check it out https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/ProjectPan\/.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/ProjectPan\/\n\n*Credits*\n\nThe graphic for this episode is a screenshot taken from the December \u201cjobs report\u201d which illustrates the gap we discuss in this program.\u00a0\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.bls.gov\/news.release\/pdf\/empsit.pdf\n\n\n\nHosts:\n\nHosts: Sean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E5 Fragrances: Debra Riley Parr<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/wH1U1UgR5bM\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, we speak with Debra Riley Parr about her research in scent studies and especially the cultural significance of fragrance and odors as both indexes of hierarchy and means of resistance against them. Debra is Associate Professor Emerita of Art and Design History and Theory at Columbia College Chicago.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.debrarileyparr.com\/\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Sources \/ Show Notes*\n\nIn the episode, Debra refers to many scholars and artists working in olfactory studies. Perfumer and cultural historian Nuri McBride offered the workshop that Debra mentions at the top of the show.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/nurimcbride.com\/\u00a0\n\nShe also mentions The feminist art and activist collective _Hilma\u2019s Ghost_, which has conducted several https:\/\/thealdrich.org\/page\/hilmas-ghost-enchantments-bottled-devotionals-of-divine-feminine-spiritsthttps:\/\/thealdrich.org\/page\/hilmas-ghost-enchantments-bottled-devotionals-of-divine-feminine-spirits and workshops on spell jars, including those that are meant to ward off the evil spirits now haunting the streets of many cities under the banner of protecting the homeland.\n\nhttps:\/\/www.hilmasghost.com\/hilmas-ghost\n\nhttps:\/\/thealdrich.org\/page\/hilmas-ghost-enchantments-bottled-devotionals-of-divine-feminine-spirits\n\nhttps:\/\/www.counterpublic.org\/circus-of-life-workshops\/hilmas-ghost\u00a0\n\n\u00a0If you are interested in checking out more academic analyses of this intersection of smells, spells, and resistance, check out _Olfactory Art and the Political in an Age of Resistance_, which she co-edited with Gwenn-A\u00ebl Lynn. It is currently on sale.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.routledge.com\/Olfactory-Art-and-the-Political-in-an-Age-of-Resistance\/Lynn-RileyParr\/p\/book\/9780367552749\n\n\n\n*Credits*\n\nCover art: The image for this episode comes from an illustrated version of _Malleus Maleficarum_, which is also known as _The Hammer of Witches_, a fifteenth century treatise about witchcraft to which Debra refers in our conversation.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/garystockbridge617.getarchive.net\/amp\/media\/burning-witches-malleus-maleficarum-montague-summers-eb3af7\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Malleus_Maleficarum\u00a0\n\n\n\n\n\nHosts: Madhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nSean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E6 Baseball, Pokemon, GlowHouse, Planets, and Soccer Formations: KIDS!<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/lVt-TnxtP7c\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>This is a very special episode. Instead of only one boring adult expert, we have five separate interviews with kids. For a few minutes each, they talk to us about a thing that they know more than a little something about. EJ, B, Iris, Atlas, and KCS talk to us about baseball and TikTok, about Pokemon, planets, and soccer formations. It is a fun episode, but these experts take their topics very seriously. Hope you enjoy listening to them as much as we did.\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Other sources*\n\n\n\nYour local library or the internet you are connected to on this device can give you further information about some of what these kids talked about. But it can&#8217;t replicate their enthusiasm or insights. So here we would just recommend you ask a kid near you more about their interests\n\n\n\n*Credits*\n\n\n\n*Image*\n\nWe were initially stumped for an image that might sum up the diverse topics these kids covered. But ultimately opted to ask Gemini (kids don&#8217;t try this at home!) to generate an image that showed Pokemon playing baseball and soccer on TikTok in space. It took a few tries but seems like a solid result.\u00a0\u00a0But we know this AI engine was trained on the work of thousands if not millions of unnamed artists throughout history. So thanks to them.\n\n\n\nCredits:\n\nHosts:Madhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nSean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E7 Stop the Apartheid Rugby Tour, Chicago Coalition, 1981: Lisa Brock<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/GH8ls4wkklo\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, we speak with Dr. Lisa Brock, a historian, radical intellectual and activist who became known as a leader of the Chicago Anti-apartheid movement while in graduate school.\u00a0She shared her account of one of the first campaigns she organized once she got here: helping coordinate the Chicago movement to boycott the South African Rugby team, which was supposed to play a game here in the fall of 1981.\n\n*Show Notes*:\nIn the episode, we discuss the publicity techniques used by the Chicago coalition of the Stop the Apartheid Rugby Tour to get their word out, including press releases, press conferences, and protests. Examples of these documents can be found in the Lisa Brock Collection of the Chicago Anti-Apartheid Movement Collection:\n\nhttps:\/\/digitalcommons.colum.edu\/brock\/\u00a0\n\nYou can also peruse documents from a similar campaign by the New York Coalition of SART earlier in 1981.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/africanactivist.msu.edu\/organization\/210-813-183\/\u00a0\n\nWe didn\u2019t include Lisa\u2019s account of the many protests that took place in the New Zealand leg of the \u201cApartheid Rugby Tour,\u201d but it was an important backdrop to the U.S. protests and future developments in New Zealand history.\u00a0\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/1981_South_Africa_rugby_union_tour_of_New_Zealand_and_the_United_States\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2021\/aug\/15\/rugby-racism-and-the-battle-for-the-soul-of-aotearoa-new-zealand\u00a0\n\nLisa also shared a copy of the letter to the _Chicago Sun-Times_ threatening her &#8211; and partially setting off the series of events on Sept. 6, 1981 she chronicles in the episode.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1zLN2ZVk4s7zDAIGfQKwt0DRgRiiYrdjI\/view?usp=sharing\u00a0\n\nTo learn more about the Anti-Apartheid Struggle &#8211; and the work of her mentor Dennis Brutus &#8211; Lisa recommends the documentary, _Have You Heard From Johannasberg,_which also provides a powerful illustration of the importance of boycotts and divestment as tools for social change, then and now.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Dennis_Brutus\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/vimeo.com\/ondemand\/haveyouheard\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Credits:*\nImage: : Columbia College Chicago, &#8220;&#8221;Apartheid Rugby is Not Sport&#8221;&#8221; (1981). _Lisa Brock Anti-Apartheid Collection_. 13.\n\nhttps:\/\/digitalcommons.colum.edu\/brock\/13\n\n\n\nHosts:\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nSean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\n\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"grid-column spotify-episode\">\n\t<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">E8 Safe Spaces: Sean Johnson Andrews<\/h4>\n\t<div class=\"spotify-episode\">\n\t\t<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/lV5LYVgRrSc\" title=\"YouTube video player\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\t\t<h5 class=\"accordion-header\">Episode Description<\/h5>\n\t\t<div class=\"spotify-episode-description accordion-content\">\n\t\t\t<p>In this episode, drawing on his current book project, podcast co-host Sean Johnson Andrews talks about concepts like safe space, cancel culture, and trigger warnings. Sean argues that these are not \u201cmerely cultural\u201d concerns but are part of a larger, longer struggle over which subjects get to feel safe in our society.\u00a0\n\n\n*Show Notes*\n\nWe don\u2019t quite get around to talking about this essay by Roxanne Gay, but it is a useful one for thinking about the concept of the trigger warning as well as safe spaces.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/therumpus.net\/2012\/08\/28\/the-illusion-of-safetythe-safety-of-illusion\/\u00a0\n\nNear the end of the episode, we talk a bit about the way trans people were vilified following recent mass shooting events, a topic covered on Sean\u2019s Substack.\n\nhttps:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\/p\/trans-terrorism-still-no\n\nHe also has several recent posts on the way recent ICE\/BP operations in Chicago are presented on keeping (white?) people safe despite the fact that they do nothing of the sort.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\/p\/the-racist-schema-of-safety\u00a0\n\nHere is the podcast conversation Sean mentions with Palestinian activist Eman Abdelhadi and other organizers of the resistance in the city.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/truthout.org\/audio\/holding-the-line-through-tear-gas-and-censorship\/\u00a0\n\n\n\n*Credits*\n\nThe image is a mashup of several of the movements and concepts that intersect in this conversation. The background is taken from a set of \u201csafe space\u201d rules that were generated by an anarchist book fair in New York City c. 2012.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/libcom.org\/article\/safer-spaces-false-allegations-and-nyc-anarchist-bookfair\u00a0\n\nThe pink triangle in a green circle was used by the LGBTQ movement in the late 1980s to designate safe spaces free from homophobia.\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Safe_space\u00a0\u00a0\n\nThe protest images are from a 2017 demonstration of the #MeToo movement (attended by Tarana Burke) and a 2015 Black Lives Matter demonstration in Minneapolis, Minnesota protesting the police killing of Jamar Clark.\u00a0\n\nhttps:\/\/www.hollywoodreporter.com\/news\/general-news\/take-back-workplace-me-marches-take-hollywood-1057374\/\n\nhttps:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Killing_of_Jamar_Clark\n\n\n\nHosts:\u00a0\n\nMadhurima Chakraborty\u00a0 &#8211; https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\/\u00a0\n\nSean Johnson Andrews -http:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\u00a0\n\nShow music: composed by Kris Stokes &#8211; https:\/\/www.krisstokes.com<\/p>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div> <!-- close columns -->\n\n\n<div style=\"height:60px\" aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-spacer\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading has-text-align-center\">Your Hosts<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns host-bios is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Madhurima Chakraborty<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/krisstokes.com\/sowhatpodcast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-1024x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-28\" srcset=\"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-1024x1024.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-768x768.jpg 768w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-1536x1536.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/madhurima-chakraborty-2-2048x2048.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Madhurima Chakraborty is Associate Professor of literature at Columbia College Chicago. You can find out more about her and her work at <a href=\"https:\/\/madhurimachakraborty.net\">MadhurimaChakraborty.net<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Sean Johnson Andrews<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/krisstokes.com\/sowhatpodcast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews-1024x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-21\" srcset=\"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews-1024x1024.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews-768x768.jpg 768w, https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/09\/sean-johnson-andrews.jpg 1537w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Sean Johnson Andrews is Associate Professor Emeritus of Cultural Studies at Columbia College Chicago. His work can be found at <a href=\"https:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">https:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\/<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Episodes Your Hosts Madhurima Chakraborty Madhurima Chakraborty is Associate Professor of literature at Columbia College Chicago. You can find out more about her and her work at MadhurimaChakraborty.net Sean Johnson Andrews Sean Johnson Andrews is Associate Professor Emeritus of Cultural Studies at Columbia College Chicago. His work can be found at https:\/\/breakingculture.substack.com\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-7","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/7","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7"}],"version-history":[{"count":37,"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/7\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":82,"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/7\/revisions\/82"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/podsowhat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}